The Ninth Article
Q. WHAT is the ninth article?
A. I believe in the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints.
A. I believe in the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints.
Q. What understand you by this?
A. I understand that Christ hath a church upon earth which he established in his own blood, and that he hath commanded us to believe that church, in all things appertaining to faith, and morals, Matt. xviii. 17.
A. I understand that Christ hath a church upon earth which he established in his own blood, and that he hath commanded us to believe that church, in all things appertaining to faith, and morals, Matt. xviii. 17.
Q. What kind of faith must we believe her with?
A. With the same faith that we believe her Spouse the Son of God, that is, with divine faith, but with this difference among other, that we believe in God; but though we believe the church, yet we do not properly believe in the church.
A. With the same faith that we believe her Spouse the Son of God, that is, with divine faith, but with this difference among other, that we believe in God; but though we believe the church, yet we do not properly believe in the church.
Q. What is the church?
A. It is the congregation of all the faithful under Jesus Christ, their invisible head, and his vicar upon earth, the Pope.
A. It is the congregation of all the faithful under Jesus Christ, their invisible head, and his vicar upon earth, the Pope.
Q. What are the essential parts of the church?
A. A Pope or supreme head, bishops, pastors, and laity.
A. A Pope or supreme head, bishops, pastors, and laity.
Q. How prove you that bishops are of divine institution?
A. Out of Acts xx. 28. Take heed unto yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
A. Out of Acts xx. 28. Take heed unto yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Q. How believe you St. Peter, and the Pope his successor, to be the visible head of the church?
A. First out of St. John xxi. 16, 17, and 18, where Christ gave St. Peter (for a reward of his special faith and love) absolute power to feed and govern his whole flock, saying, Feed my Lambs, feed my lambs, feed my sheep; therefore the rest of the apostles were his sheep, and he their head or pastor.
Secondly, out of St. Matt. xvi. 18, where Christ saith, Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock will I build my church. Therefore the rest of the apostles were built on him; and hence also it is, that in Scripture, St. Peter is still named first.
A. First out of St. John xxi. 16, 17, and 18, where Christ gave St. Peter (for a reward of his special faith and love) absolute power to feed and govern his whole flock, saying, Feed my Lambs, feed my lambs, feed my sheep; therefore the rest of the apostles were his sheep, and he their head or pastor.
Secondly, out of St. Matt. xvi. 18, where Christ saith, Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock will I build my church. Therefore the rest of the apostles were built on him; and hence also it is, that in Scripture, St. Peter is still named first.
Q. What are the marks of the true church?
A. Unity, sanctity, universality, and to be apostolical.
A. Unity, sanctity, universality, and to be apostolical.
Q. What mean you by the church's unity?
A. That all her members live under one evangelical law, obey the same supreme head, and his magistrates profess the same faith, even to the last article, and use the same sacraments and sacrifices.
A. That all her members live under one evangelical law, obey the same supreme head, and his magistrates profess the same faith, even to the last article, and use the same sacraments and sacrifices.
Q. How prove you out of Scripture that the church is one?
A. 1 Cor. x. 17. Being many (saith St. Paul) we are one bread, one body, all who participate of one bread.
A. 1 Cor. x. 17. Being many (saith St. Paul) we are one bread, one body, all who participate of one bread.
Q. Why may not a well-meaning person be saved in any religion?
A. Because there is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism, Ephes. iv. 5, and without (that one) faith, it is impossible to please God. Heb. xi. 6.
A. Because there is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism, Ephes. iv. 5, and without (that one) faith, it is impossible to please God. Heb. xi. 6.
Q. What other reason have you for it?
A. Because, as in a natural body, that part which has not a due connection to the heart or root, presently dies for want of continuity; so in the church (the mystical body of Christ) that man who has not a due subordination and connection to the head and common councils thereof, (that is, the Pope and general councils from whence under Christ we have our spiritual life and motion, as we are Christians,) must needs be dead, nor indeed can he be accounted a member of that mystical body.
A. Because, as in a natural body, that part which has not a due connection to the heart or root, presently dies for want of continuity; so in the church (the mystical body of Christ) that man who has not a due subordination and connection to the head and common councils thereof, (that is, the Pope and general councils from whence under Christ we have our spiritual life and motion, as we are Christians,) must needs be dead, nor indeed can he be accounted a member of that mystical body.
Q. Who, I beseech you, are those who are not to be accounted members of the Church?
A. All such as are not in the unity of the church, by a most firm belief of her doctrine, and due obedience to her pastors; as Jews, Turks, Heretics, &c.
A. All such as are not in the unity of the church, by a most firm belief of her doctrine, and due obedience to her pastors; as Jews, Turks, Heretics, &c.
Q. Why may not Heretics and Schismatics justly claim to be in the Unity of the Church and Members of Christ's body?
A. Because Catholics can show to each sect of Heretics and Schismatics the time they began; the date of their separation from the Church: the name of the person or persons of their sect who first separated themselves, and the cause of their condemnation; whilst the Catholic Church always was from the beginning.
A. Because Catholics can show to each sect of Heretics and Schismatics the time they began; the date of their separation from the Church: the name of the person or persons of their sect who first separated themselves, and the cause of their condemnation; whilst the Catholic Church always was from the beginning.
Q. What if a Protestant should tell you, that the difference between them and us, are not differences in fundamentals, or in faith, but in opinion only, and therefore do not exclude them out of unity of the Catholic Church?
A. I should answer, they contradict themselves; for they accuse us of robbing God of his honour, in holding priestly absolutions from sins; in adoring Christ's body and blood, as really present in the eucharist, and holding the Pope's supremacy in things belonging to the spiritual government of the Church, also the infallibility of the Church and general councils, in delivering and defining points of faith, which are no matters of indifference, but high fundamentals.
A. I should answer, they contradict themselves; for they accuse us of robbing God of his honour, in holding priestly absolutions from sins; in adoring Christ's body and blood, as really present in the eucharist, and holding the Pope's supremacy in things belonging to the spiritual government of the Church, also the infallibility of the Church and general councils, in delivering and defining points of faith, which are no matters of indifference, but high fundamentals.
Q. How do you prove all obstinate Innovators to be Heretics?
A. Because they wilfully stand out against the definitive sentence of the Church of God, and submit not to any tribunal appointed by Christ to decide religious controversies; but follow their own interpretation of the dead letter of the scriptures.
A. Because they wilfully stand out against the definitive sentence of the Church of God, and submit not to any tribunal appointed by Christ to decide religious controversies; but follow their own interpretation of the dead letter of the scriptures.
Q. And is not this the reason also why Protestants and all other sectarians are so divided in religious matters?
A. Yes, it is; for how is it possible that people who imagine that there is no person or tribunal, or even the Church of God, infallible, for expounding the bible; people, who expound it each according to his respective fancy; people, who have no control over the erroneous interpretation of each other; how it is possible that such people would have the unity of faith, in the bond of peace; or that they be not tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine?
A. Yes, it is; for how is it possible that people who imagine that there is no person or tribunal, or even the Church of God, infallible, for expounding the bible; people, who expound it each according to his respective fancy; people, who have no control over the erroneous interpretation of each other; how it is possible that such people would have the unity of faith, in the bond of peace; or that they be not tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine?
Q. Why may not the letter of the Scripture be a decisive judge of controversies?
A. Because it has never been able from it[s] first publication, to decide any one dispute; as the whole world knows from experience: all heretics equally pretend to scripture authority in defence of their errors and heresies.
A. Because it has never been able from it[s] first publication, to decide any one dispute; as the whole world knows from experience: all heretics equally pretend to scripture authority in defence of their errors and heresies.
Q. How then can we ascertain the truth amidst conflicting opinions?
A. By the infallible authority, definition, and proposition of the Catholic Church.
A. By the infallible authority, definition, and proposition of the Catholic Church.
Q. For what end, then, was the Scripture written, if not to be a decider of controversies?
A. The writing of the Holy Scriptures was for the purpose of the better preserving the revealed will of God, and that by a sensible and common reading of it, without any critical or controversial disputes of words, we might be able to know that God is, and what he is, and also that there is a heaven and a hell, rewards for virtue and punishment for vice, with examples of both, all which we find in the letter of the Scripture, by a plain and ordinary reading.
A. The writing of the Holy Scriptures was for the purpose of the better preserving the revealed will of God, and that by a sensible and common reading of it, without any critical or controversial disputes of words, we might be able to know that God is, and what he is, and also that there is a heaven and a hell, rewards for virtue and punishment for vice, with examples of both, all which we find in the letter of the Scripture, by a plain and ordinary reading.
Q. Is the church we speak of visible?
A. She is and must be visible at all times, as consisting of a hierarchy of pastors, governing, teaching, administering sacraments to the world's end, and of other people governed, taught and receiving sacraments at their hands, all publicly professing the same faith, all which things are visible.
A. She is and must be visible at all times, as consisting of a hierarchy of pastors, governing, teaching, administering sacraments to the world's end, and of other people governed, taught and receiving sacraments at their hands, all publicly professing the same faith, all which things are visible.
Q. How prove you that?
A. First, out of Eph. iv. 1, and 12. 'Christ gave some apostles, some evangelists, some doctors, some pastors, to the consummation of the saints, to the edifying of the body of Christ, and to the work of the ministry, until we all meet in the unity of faith.'
Secondly, out of St. Matt. v. 14, where Christ saith of his church, "You are the light of the world, a city seated on a high mountain cannot be hid."
A. First, out of Eph. iv. 1, and 12. 'Christ gave some apostles, some evangelists, some doctors, some pastors, to the consummation of the saints, to the edifying of the body of Christ, and to the work of the ministry, until we all meet in the unity of faith.'
Secondly, out of St. Matt. v. 14, where Christ saith of his church, "You are the light of the world, a city seated on a high mountain cannot be hid."
Q. Why then would the Protestants have the church to be invisible?
A. Because we have convinced them, that there were no Protestants to be seen or heard of in the world before Martin Luther.
A. Because we have convinced them, that there were no Protestants to be seen or heard of in the world before Martin Luther.
Q. Why is the church said to be holy, or to have sanctity?
A. Because she hath a holy faith, a holy law, holy sacraments, and is guided by the Holy Ghost, to all truth and holiness.
A. Because she hath a holy faith, a holy law, holy sacraments, and is guided by the Holy Ghost, to all truth and holiness.
Q. How else prove you her sanctity?
A. Because Christ gave himself for his church that he might sanctify her, cleansing her by the laver of water in the world, that he might present her to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, but that she might be holy and unspotted. Eph. v. 26, 27.
A. Because Christ gave himself for his church that he might sanctify her, cleansing her by the laver of water in the world, that he might present her to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, but that she might be holy and unspotted. Eph. v. 26, 27.
Q. Notwithstanding the sanctity of the Catholic Church, are not some Catholics as wicked as Protestants?
A. Yes, verily, and more wicked, for where sanctity is less, their sacrilege cannot be so great. No man could damn his own posterity, but he that had original justice to lose: nor any man to betray Christ, but he that had eaten at his table. Protestants have not a holy faith, such sacraments, nor a holy church to abuse, as Catholics have, and therefore no wonder, if some Catholics be worse than any Protestants; yet Catholics have some saints, but Protestants have none.
A. Yes, verily, and more wicked, for where sanctity is less, their sacrilege cannot be so great. No man could damn his own posterity, but he that had original justice to lose: nor any man to betray Christ, but he that had eaten at his table. Protestants have not a holy faith, such sacraments, nor a holy church to abuse, as Catholics have, and therefore no wonder, if some Catholics be worse than any Protestants; yet Catholics have some saints, but Protestants have none.
Q. Is the church infallible?
A. She is, and therefore to be believed, and all men may rest securely on her judgment.
A. She is, and therefore to be believed, and all men may rest securely on her judgment.
Q. How prove you that?
A. First, because she is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim. iii. 15.
Secondly, out of St. Matt. xvi. 18, where Christ saith, "Upon this Rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her."
Thirdly, out of St. John, xiv. 26. But the Paraclete, (saith he,) the Holy Ghost, shall teach you all things whatsoever I shall say to you. And xvi. 13. But when the Spirit of truth cometh, he shall teach you all truth.
A. First, because she is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim. iii. 15.
Secondly, out of St. Matt. xvi. 18, where Christ saith, "Upon this Rock will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her."
Thirdly, out of St. John, xiv. 26. But the Paraclete, (saith he,) the Holy Ghost, shall teach you all things whatsoever I shall say to you. And xvi. 13. But when the Spirit of truth cometh, he shall teach you all truth.
Q. How declare you that the definitions of a council perfectly ecumenical, that is, a general council approved by the Pope, are infallible in matters of faith?
A. Because such a council is the church representative, and has the same infallibility that the church spread over the world hath.
A. Because such a council is the church representative, and has the same infallibility that the church spread over the world hath.
Q. What other reason have you?
A. Because of the definitions of such a council are the dictates of the Holy Ghost, according to that of the apostles, deciding in council, it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, Acts xv. 28.
A. Because of the definitions of such a council are the dictates of the Holy Ghost, according to that of the apostles, deciding in council, it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, Acts xv. 28.
Q. What think you then of such as accuse the church of errors in faith and idolatry?
A. Truly I think them to be Heretics or Infidels, for our Lord saith, He that will not hear the church let him be unto thee as a heathen and a publican, St. Matt. xviii. 17.
A. Truly I think them to be Heretics or Infidels, for our Lord saith, He that will not hear the church let him be unto thee as a heathen and a publican, St. Matt. xviii. 17.
Q. Is not the church at least too severe in its censures and excommunications against sectaries?
A. No, she is very reasonable and charitable in them for vicious, passionate, and self-interested men some times are brought to reason for fear of punishment and are forced to their own good, when no authority ordained by Christ is able to persuade them to it.
A. No, she is very reasonable and charitable in them for vicious, passionate, and self-interested men some times are brought to reason for fear of punishment and are forced to their own good, when no authority ordained by Christ is able to persuade them to it.
Q. What understood you by the word catholic, or by the universality of the church?
A. I understand the church is universal, both for time and place.
A. I understand the church is universal, both for time and place.
Q. How for time?
A. Because she hath been from Christ to this time, and shall be from thence to the end of the world.
A. Because she hath been from Christ to this time, and shall be from thence to the end of the world.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Out of St. Matt. xxviii. 20. Going therefore (saith our Lord) teach ye all nations, &c. and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
A. Out of St. Matt. xxviii. 20. Going therefore (saith our Lord) teach ye all nations, &c. and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Q. What mean you by the universality of place?
A. First, out of St. Matt. above cited, Teach all nations.
Secondly out of Psalm lxxxv. 9. All Nations, whatsoever thou hast made, shall come and adore before thee, O Lord.
Thirdly, out of Apoc. vii. 9, where we read, that the church shall be gathered out of all nations, people, tribes, and tongues.
A. First, out of St. Matt. above cited, Teach all nations.
Secondly out of Psalm lxxxv. 9. All Nations, whatsoever thou hast made, shall come and adore before thee, O Lord.
Thirdly, out of Apoc. vii. 9, where we read, that the church shall be gathered out of all nations, people, tribes, and tongues.
Q. Why do we call the church the Roman Church?
A. Because, since the transition of St. Peter's chair from Antioch to Rome, the particular Roman Church has been head of all the churches, and to her the primacy has been affixed.
A. Because, since the transition of St. Peter's chair from Antioch to Rome, the particular Roman Church has been head of all the churches, and to her the primacy has been affixed.
Q. What is the rule by which the church preserves entire the deposit of Faith and confounds all sectaries?
A. Apostolical traditions, or receipt of doctrine by hand to hand from Christ and his apostles.
A. Apostolical traditions, or receipt of doctrine by hand to hand from Christ and his apostles.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Out of Rom. vi. 17. "Therefore I beseech you, brethren (saith St. Paul) mark them which make dissensions and scandals, contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them, for such do not serve Christ our Lord."
A. Out of Rom. vi. 17. "Therefore I beseech you, brethren (saith St. Paul) mark them which make dissensions and scandals, contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them, for such do not serve Christ our Lord."
Q. What other proofs have you?
A. Out of St. Paul, saying, "But although we or an angel from heaven evangelize to you, besides that which we have evangelized to you, be he anathema, or besides, what you have received be he anathema." Gal. i. 8, 9.
A. Out of St. Paul, saying, "But although we or an angel from heaven evangelize to you, besides that which we have evangelized to you, be he anathema, or besides, what you have received be he anathema." Gal. i. 8, 9.
Q. Can the church err in faith, standing to this rule, and admitting nothing for faith, but what is consented by the whole church to have been so received?
A. She cannot, otherwise the whole church must there conspire in a notorious lie, to damn herself and her posterity, or else she must be ignorant what hath been taught for her faith by the church of the precedent age, which are both natural impossibilities.
A. She cannot, otherwise the whole church must there conspire in a notorious lie, to damn herself and her posterity, or else she must be ignorant what hath been taught for her faith by the church of the precedent age, which are both natural impossibilities.
Q. How prove you these to be impossibilities by nature?
A. By the constancy and immutability of contingent causes, whose particulars may be defective, but the universals cannot.
A. By the constancy and immutability of contingent causes, whose particulars may be defective, but the universals cannot.
Q. Explain that a little.
A. Because one man or two or three may be born but with one arm, or one eye only, through defect of their particular causes; but that all nature should fail at once, and all men be so born, is totally impossible in nature; in like manner, one man or two may conspire in palpable lies to damn themselves and their posterity, or be deceived in what hath been taught them for faith, from their very cradles; but that the whole church should so far break with the nature of man (which is reason) to conspire in such a lie, or to be so mistaken, is as impossible in nature, as it is for men to be no men.
A. Because one man or two or three may be born but with one arm, or one eye only, through defect of their particular causes; but that all nature should fail at once, and all men be so born, is totally impossible in nature; in like manner, one man or two may conspire in palpable lies to damn themselves and their posterity, or be deceived in what hath been taught them for faith, from their very cradles; but that the whole church should so far break with the nature of man (which is reason) to conspire in such a lie, or to be so mistaken, is as impossible in nature, as it is for men to be no men.
Q. May some errors have been received for faith, and crept insensibly over the whole church, no man perceiving or taking notice of them?
A. No, that is as impossible as that the plague or burning fever should infect or spread itself over a whole kingdom for many years, no man perceiving it, or seeking to prevent it; for nothing causes greater notice to be taken, than any public or notorious change in matters of religion.
A. No, that is as impossible as that the plague or burning fever should infect or spread itself over a whole kingdom for many years, no man perceiving it, or seeking to prevent it; for nothing causes greater notice to be taken, than any public or notorious change in matters of religion.
Q. May not the power of temporal princes, or the over prevalency of human wit and reason, have introduced errors into the church?
A. Neither is that possible, seeing we are not regulated in things which are of faith, either by power, or any strength of reason, but by the rule of apostolical tradition, and by inquiring of the whole church of every age, what hath been taught by our forefathers, from Christ and his apostles.
A. Neither is that possible, seeing we are not regulated in things which are of faith, either by power, or any strength of reason, but by the rule of apostolical tradition, and by inquiring of the whole church of every age, what hath been taught by our forefathers, from Christ and his apostles.
Q. Was not the Millenary heresy an apostolical tradition?
A. No, it was not; for there is no assurance or consent among those who write of it, that it was ever preached or delivered by the apostles.
A. No, it was not; for there is no assurance or consent among those who write of it, that it was ever preached or delivered by the apostles.
Q. Did not St. Austin and Innocentius, with their councils, hold the communion of children a thing necessary to their salvation?
A. They speak not of sacramental communion, as is evident to all who have read their works, but of the effect of it, that is, of their incorporation into the mystical body of Christ, which is made in baptism, and this only they affirmed to be necessary to their salvation.
A. They speak not of sacramental communion, as is evident to all who have read their works, but of the effect of it, that is, of their incorporation into the mystical body of Christ, which is made in baptism, and this only they affirmed to be necessary to their salvation.
Q. At least do not heretics say and aver, that the church hath apostatized and erred in faith?
A. They do indeed, but it will not serve their turn barely to say it, unless they were also able to prove it, (which they neither are or will be) by evident and undeniable proofs.
A. They do indeed, but it will not serve their turn barely to say it, unless they were also able to prove it, (which they neither are or will be) by evident and undeniable proofs.
Q. How prove you that?
A. First, because that presumption and possession of her integrity and infallibility is on the church's side; and therefore ought not to be yielded up, without clear evidence of her prevarication.
Secondly, because he that accuses his neighbour's wife of adultery, without convincing proof thereof, is not to be hearkened unto, but to be hated by all good men, as a most infamous slanderer; much more ought they who shall accuse the church, the spouse of Christ, of errors and apostasy, unless their proofs be evident and undeniable, to be detested as blasphemous heretics.
Thirdly, because if less than manifest and convincing evidence be sufficient to prove matters of this high nature, it is not impossible but every false tongue shall set dissensions between man and wife, and stir up the most faithful subjects in the world to a rebellion against their princes, both spiritual and temporal.
A. First, because that presumption and possession of her integrity and infallibility is on the church's side; and therefore ought not to be yielded up, without clear evidence of her prevarication.
Secondly, because he that accuses his neighbour's wife of adultery, without convincing proof thereof, is not to be hearkened unto, but to be hated by all good men, as a most infamous slanderer; much more ought they who shall accuse the church, the spouse of Christ, of errors and apostasy, unless their proofs be evident and undeniable, to be detested as blasphemous heretics.
Thirdly, because if less than manifest and convincing evidence be sufficient to prove matters of this high nature, it is not impossible but every false tongue shall set dissensions between man and wife, and stir up the most faithful subjects in the world to a rebellion against their princes, both spiritual and temporal.
Q. What other reason have you yet, why the church and law of Christ may not fail and be utterly extinguished?
A. Because the causes of religion (to wit, the hope of good, and fear of evil from God) are universal and necessary, always knocking at men's hearts, and putting them in mind of some good or other, and therefore must needs have perpetual and necessary effects, which in such as are convinced that Christ is God, can be no other than the faith, hope and love of Christ, and the observance of his law, and that for ever, speaking of the whole church, although particular men may err and fall away.
A. Because the causes of religion (to wit, the hope of good, and fear of evil from God) are universal and necessary, always knocking at men's hearts, and putting them in mind of some good or other, and therefore must needs have perpetual and necessary effects, which in such as are convinced that Christ is God, can be no other than the faith, hope and love of Christ, and the observance of his law, and that for ever, speaking of the whole church, although particular men may err and fall away.
Q. What is it for the church to be apostolical?
A. To have been begun and propagated by the apostles, and to have a succession of pastors, and doctrines from them.
A. To have been begun and propagated by the apostles, and to have a succession of pastors, and doctrines from them.
Q. What means the communion of saints?
A. It means first that the faithful do all communicate in the same faith and sacraments, in the same sacrifice, and also in the merits of one another.
A. It means first that the faithful do all communicate in the same faith and sacraments, in the same sacrifice, and also in the merits of one another.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Out of 1 Cor. xii. 26. And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member do glory, all the members rejoice with it, you are the body of Christ, and members of a member.
Secondly, It means that the faithful on earth communicate with the angels and the saints in heaven; we by praising and praying to them, they by praying for us.
A. Out of 1 Cor. xii. 26. And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member do glory, all the members rejoice with it, you are the body of Christ, and members of a member.
Secondly, It means that the faithful on earth communicate with the angels and the saints in heaven; we by praising and praying to them, they by praying for us.
Q. How do you prove this communion?
A. Out of Luke xv. 10. There is joy before the angels of God upon one sinner that doth penance. And out of 1 John i. 3, That you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship may be with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
A. Out of Luke xv. 10. There is joy before the angels of God upon one sinner that doth penance. And out of 1 John i. 3, That you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship may be with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Q. How prove you that the saints have any power to do us good?
A. Out of Apoc. ii. 26, 27, where Christ hath promised them power over us: to him, said he, that shall overcome, and keep my works to the end, to him will I give power over nations, and he shall rule them with an iron rod.
A. Out of Apoc. ii. 26, 27, where Christ hath promised them power over us: to him, said he, that shall overcome, and keep my works to the end, to him will I give power over nations, and he shall rule them with an iron rod.
Q. How prove you that it is lawful to pray to angels?
A. Out of Apoc. i. 4, where St. John did it: Grace (saith he) to you, and peace from him that is, that was, and that shall come, and from the seven spirits that are in the sight of his throne.
A. Out of Apoc. i. 4, where St. John did it: Grace (saith he) to you, and peace from him that is, that was, and that shall come, and from the seven spirits that are in the sight of his throne.
Q. What other proof have you?
A. Out of Apoc. viii. 4, where we read, that they present the church's prayers to God. The smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascend from the hand of the angel before God.
A. Out of Apoc. viii. 4, where we read, that they present the church's prayers to God. The smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascend from the hand of the angel before God.
Q. How prove you that we may pray to saints?
A. Out of Gen. xlvii, 16, where Jacob taught his children to do it, saying, And let my name be invocated upon them, the names also of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac.
A. Out of Gen. xlvii, 16, where Jacob taught his children to do it, saying, And let my name be invocated upon them, the names also of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac.
Q. How prove you that they pray for us?
A. Out of Apoc. v. 8. The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one harps, and vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints.
A. Out of Apoc. v. 8. The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one harps, and vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints.
Q. Is it no dishonour to God, for us to pray to saints to pray for us?
A. No, it is not, nor yet to beg it of men; for St. Paul did it: We hope (saith he) that God will deliver us, you also helping in prayer for us. 2 Cor. i. 11.
A. No, it is not, nor yet to beg it of men; for St. Paul did it: We hope (saith he) that God will deliver us, you also helping in prayer for us. 2 Cor. i. 11.
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Comments are subject to deletion if they are not germane. I have no problem with a bit of colourful language, but blasphemy or depraved profanity will not be allowed. Attacks on the Catholic Faith will not be tolerated. Comments will be deleted that are republican (Yanks! Note the lower case 'r'!), attacks on the legitimacy of Pope Francis as the Vicar of Christ (I know he's a material heretic and a Protector of Perverts, and I definitely want him gone yesterday! However, he is Pope, and I pray for him every day.), the legitimacy of the House of Windsor or of the claims of the Elder Line of the House of France, or attacks on the legitimacy of any of the currently ruling Houses of Europe.